Sacrifice & selflove: on loving circus and its challenges

00:00:00: I really think that for in general, love to become more healthy it has been known monogamous.

00:00:08: And then i think like... For circuses it could also be the same right?

00:00:12: Because we've become when at least me was in circus school and there's this such a big pressure that Circus becomes center of your life!

00:00:22: It is like hey maybe not

00:00:49: Hello.

00:00:49: and very well Warm welcome to the next episode of The Mermaid Project, a little research about love and relationships.

00:00:58: Today is our second English episode because my two guests are... We cannot speak in German as like this!

00:01:06: And we're different countries so we are online again.

00:01:11: I'm really, really happy that it's working out.

00:01:13: We had some troubles to find a date but finally shortly before Christmas we can have this talk about love and circus!

00:01:23: And the background back-tail of this episode is that i wrote an article about The Take Care Conference at the Circus Dance Festival This year in Cologne In May.

00:01:40: During the writing of this article, a question pops up about relationship with pain and circus.

00:01:50: And as follow-up I came to ask how can love for circus be more healthy?

00:02:04: Before that article was published i asked Gaia and Amanda my guests today to Reddit and through this email conversation, I got the idea that it would be nice to have more space.

00:02:17: To talk about this question.

00:02:19: so a invited them both too This podcast am really happy And yeah Really excited for The Talk which will follow now.

00:02:29: So um Yeah i would Be Happy if you introduce yourself?

00:02:34: End answer their first Question as always like Which is the clear the water which is closest to you.

00:02:42: Hello, thanks Yolande for inviting us!

00:02:46: I am Gaia Vimercati and i'm speaking at a moment from Milano.

00:02:51: that's in the city where my home is so i'm super happy to be back after long season of travels.

00:03:01: as i speak about Milano to me is a glass of water.

00:03:09: Okay so hi I'm Amanda Homa, i am speaking from Toulouse where i live currently in the past ten years but i'm japanese-brazilian originally and um i'm a circus artist...i don't know if that matters but this is part of the presentation!

00:03:28: And uh..the closest boat of water river across, one of the biggest rivers in France that is just one street away from me.

00:03:41: Which it's like very important reason why I live in a same place for the past eight years.

00:03:48: Thank you so much.

00:03:49: as You started now Amanda to talk about your perspective From which are speaking I am would you add little bit To Your perspective As well.

00:03:58: Yes sure i'm an independent researcher.

00:04:02: I entered The Circus field ten Years ago now and yeah this year is going to be the tenth year that I'm working in The Circus.

00:04:14: Uh,

00:04:14: i work currently for Quattro per quattro in Milano.

00:04:18: That is also the same uh space I started working for many years ago.

00:04:24: And yep so I am not a circus practitioner In the mainstream sense but I defend the circus as a practice of thought.

00:04:32: Also This is my entry point for this talk.

00:04:37: Nice, thank you!

00:04:39: And as a first last introduction question our relationship to each other is that Amanda and me met two years ago I think on a conference in Barcelona also around the topic of circus and feminism And then Gaia and me, the three of us met again at Circus Dance Festival.

00:05:07: For me personally it was a meeting to feel the rage around this same thing.

00:05:14: so I have an emotional connection because there is similar reaction in some things.

00:05:25: but you can add something

00:05:27: if you like.

00:05:28: Yes, I can add something.

00:05:30: First i would like to add a little bit of my perspective on why I stand when I talk and as I said before it's a circus artist but also has a migrant in Europe from South America And then by that being considered a known white person and also a cis-john roleperson As I recognize she or her.

00:05:52: yeah those are very important points.

00:05:56: But maybe also when we're coming to the topic of love, I never really mentioned it but i think as important.

00:06:03: I'm a known heterosexual person and um...I think I prefer yeah..maybe or just say non-heterosexual rather than really defining what it is?

00:06:13: And uh...yeah!

00:06:14: I think those are an important points for me too When we come to the point of love even though It's going be many different kinds of love that we may bring up together.

00:06:26: And maybe to add where we meet.

00:06:29: Actually, were we met?

00:06:31: Me and you Yolanda first met in a very interesting discussion during sharing is scary I would say which... We had this week together when all many artists shared our methods of creation.

00:06:46: then by the end of that week there was one group discussion with people about care work in the circles field, and especially production.

00:06:59: During that discussion someone said an incredible phrase... not all men are like that and they just raise up the fire.

00:07:09: Yes,

00:07:11: I already forgot it!

00:07:13: And then you learn to react...and some other people react but by our reactions.

00:07:21: this is where we recognize eachother somehow.

00:07:26: Yeah, I think with Gaia.

00:07:27: it was also like our first meeting point.

00:07:30: It's quite similar because we were in one of the workshops at Circus Dance Festival and i think our reaction to what the workshop leader was saying is also quite... And when we sat next to each other both our bodies were tensioned.

00:07:48: Yes The tension and need to go out but at the same time the importance of staying.

00:07:58: and yeah, that was like a very key moment I would say.

00:08:04: Bodies in space Also as Amanda did to position myself bit better To see better the perspective i'm speaking from.

00:08:15: I am a cis white woman Italian living in Italy.

00:08:21: I would define myself as lesbian now.

00:08:24: I say now because it took me a lot of years to come this point, and now i can say it proudly and firmly.

00:08:34: And...I think that the process for deconstruction went on in parallel with the same deconstruction which was brought into my circus practices mostly for this reason, not only or not-not for biographical reasons.

00:08:54: And yeah here I am...I have a European passport and i'm not married.

00:09:01: Here I am!

00:09:02: Thank you.

00:09:03: maybe we can start with what you just said because it's really interesting that you talked about the parallel of these two evolutions?

00:09:14: Do you like to tell more about them?

00:09:17: Yes Well, I would say that i started my journey in the circus out of love but I should say Out Of Romantic Love.

00:09:29: That is a very important adjective when we speak about Love and The Circus because most of time it's kind of entangled.

00:09:40: so When We Speak About Love It's Always RomanticLove.

00:09:44: And this took me I would say many years to acknowledge that love is way bigger than the romantic love and also way more liberating then the romantic.

00:09:57: Love, uh...I felt a lot of oppression connected through this idea of romance and these kind of disconnection between the mind in the bodies, um..the ideal and real reason emotions.

00:10:15: And in a way, I saw the circus at the beginning as space where we could kind of reconnect to these things.

00:10:23: But at the same time...I saw a lot of unspoken entanglement on two things that were also crossing through my life and personal paths my path through love in the circus.

00:10:49: It's a part of deconstruction and reconstruction.

00:10:53: Nice, thank you!

00:10:55: Yeah but I mean Gaia already started it for... The first question was quite open about connection between Love & Circus because the podcast is originally more romantic Love & Relationships.

00:11:11: But of course, in my life also circus is the longest relationship I have.

00:11:17: So

00:11:18: yeah except my mom but maybe Amanda what's your first thought about the connection?

00:11:25: About love and circus?

00:11:27: Yeah i though it was very interesting like what Gaia said out of romantic love to be honest...I think..i've never put those two things together I never put circus, and...I think i've never put it work.

00:11:42: And love together Those are not things that somehow in my mind In life don't really know why It's like out of political statement at all Naturally was on there.

00:11:53: for me I think Circus is more connected to something alternative Something that was an alternative To what didn't want At the time when looking something, especially like in my personal case is I was high school and needed to choose something.

00:12:18: And knew everything that i didn't want to go for.

00:12:26: so it's more out of curiosity going somewhere you don't know because then its easier to try.

00:12:38: And so I think...I don't know where to put love in all of that, because it's like alternative curiosity.

00:12:47: Maybe we could have some kind of reading or self-love kind off?

00:12:53: Like listening to oneself and deciding to go into something for yourself.

00:12:57: but

00:12:58: That was not the feeling i was going through at that time.

00:13:00: You know there will be also a way of looking at it nowadays But yeah!

00:13:08: had this feeling for Circos, like throughout my whole life with Circos then now it's... I think its yeah.

00:13:17: Fifteen years and uh..I think i never had the feeling of oh!

00:13:21: I love Circos like ever.

00:13:24: so I think I got very interested in art And Im very interested In The Medium that Circos is in Art.

00:13:32: But I Never Had Like The Feeling Of Love For Those Things I Would Say

00:13:37: Super interesting.

00:13:39: Yeah, of course it's also a way to see it.

00:13:43: Maybe I From my perspective because i spend so much energy and time with It.

00:13:50: My conclusion is that this Is love?

00:13:53: It's also yeah maybe but um Gaia would you say the say like how do You want your answer?

00:14:02: Do you love circus?

00:14:03: maybe I should have started With this question.

00:14:07: Well, in my career path I would say that this myth of love and passion connected to circus maybe also for the fact that i'm leaving a work in Italy was super present.

00:14:20: And also...I think that in my country like work context as cultural is not always recognized at work There is a lot of love used as justification for keeping things grow.

00:14:47: So, just talking about work also because Amanda brought the nice word into that talk especially in first years I and many people around me we built this space out of passion, out love without considering the risks that not naming unpaid labor or anything connected to it would bring.

00:15:18: So this is one thing I'm trying now change.

00:15:22: like for me circuses work but it's a landing point as maybe for Amanda if i understood correctly because, yes as a cultural worker in Italy.

00:15:38: Also in the country that has long tradition of volunteer work this idea... I think it's also connected to Catholicism and like the history of Italy for the second half of the century i think there is a lot of cultural work which is connected with volunteer.

00:15:59: so passion if you work on passion You have this mission, the cultural mission that in a way elevates you and makes your work more right.

00:16:13: But to me what I discovered so far after also a lot of pain i should be honest it's not a thing anymore for me like cultural works is work and circuses work.

00:16:30: I just, when you're both talking... I asked myself the question.

00:16:36: Would you think it's different for cis male?

00:16:41: Because he talked a lot about care work and that then we came up with an idea of love And then its unpaid work and blah-blah About connection to that.

00:16:51: So i'd ask if i would sit here to talk With two men talking about love and circus, what do you think would be maybe a different difference?

00:17:03: Yeah.

00:17:04: I think it's very difficult to put ourselves in the shoes of a very different perspective but at the same time is the dominant perspective.

00:17:12: so we learn a lot on how to try to look... ...look at things in the same way.

00:17:18: this dominant perspective is looking at things But still i think that we learn alot on how-to.

00:17:23: We don't really have access to every subject behind what we put cis male.

00:17:35: But looking, trying to like imagine from the stereotype perspective I think it would just because we don't put the same things behind a word love dot and also maybe but this is more unclear for me Maybe not as well behind the same the word circus?

00:17:56: Maybe behind-the-word circles is more about other stuff, not only gender.

00:18:01: But love... There's this gender component to it.

00:18:05: that is very big and I have no idea why they put behind the word LOVE!

00:18:11: Like i only have these stereotype of things get me and that touches my life And I could go on with it but I'm not sure if its like the most interesting thing to do.

00:18:23: so thats why we will not.

00:18:26: I think that it will be very different especially because of that, i would say myself.

00:18:31: Well...I kind of agree!

00:18:35: What can add?

00:18:36: I don't know if its meaningful but like..i think for the first years in my careers , i tried to over-adapt a system where was like a minority considering some perspective sexual orientation.

00:19:04: And I realized that, for example... ...I had internalized a lot of things That i didn't know were kind-of wrong and so in way contributed to build the system like also oppressing me myself.

00:19:20: So when you speak about care work.. ..i was first think that should put more care than other people in the same position or field just because that was an expectation on me.

00:19:33: and then, you know to be recognized I should do that thing.

00:19:39: And like until I recognize it's wrong but not my thing anymore i kept reproducing this system.

00:19:51: so as Amanda said I don't know how it feels, what they put behind the word love.

00:20:01: But from my perspective... ...I think i had internalized a lot of patriarchy myself and that now we recognize as wrong and oppressive for many people.

00:20:16: I would follow up with one question Gaia.

00:20:18: you sent me in the respond email to the article which I find really interesting, but very big as well.

00:20:27: And it was how can we distangle love from sacrifice or exhaustion and practice that often shape their narratives on that?

00:20:35: Or rely for survival?

00:20:39: Well... For many years ... like i thought that love was a sacrifice definitely!

00:20:46: Like..i was into the narrative both Because in the end romantic love is that thing, you know it's like Sacrifice yourself and just Give all old part of your self for the others without In fact considering their responsibility.

00:21:07: That comes with loving alike And also consider what he's about to do which is about the other What we can negotiate in a relationship?

00:21:15: Which is not negotiable.

00:21:17: And so one of the most recent discoveries for me, also thanks to work that I did with Amanda in a project we worked together La Parole Corpi where I invited her as co-curator.

00:21:29: Uh...I really realized that sacrifice is not love.

00:21:34: and i think uh this Is One Of The Myths That Maybe In My Circus Practices Around Me It's More Present This Idea If You Don't Sacrifice you don't Love Enough.

00:21:48: And this brought me, and I saw many people around me struggle a lot with that thing.

00:21:54: Not recognizing it as a dangerous myth... That was actually impacting on the health of my own people's lives.

00:22:06: I can go myself?

00:22:09: It brings to me questions about these kinds of reflections just because I realized, like when i was speaking in the beginning that I've never put it work and love together.

00:22:20: And stuff like that?

00:22:22: I think from probably... From the culture I come from especially the Japanese culture I grew up within.

00:22:30: It's not Work and discipline has enough money to do with Love!

00:22:37: How you feel about it is more you just do the thing, right?

00:22:41: Like it's more about commitment.

00:22:43: It is more like having a goal or wanting to something and being curious.

00:22:48: I don't want sell any romanticized idea of Japanese culture because i really dont believe so.

00:22:54: but...I see that didn't grew up with those things being entangled actually And think have this feeling we can really commit and wanna do stuff for even sacrifice But has nothing to do the feeling of love.

00:23:11: but because I think also there's this umbrella where like love becomes a huge umbrella while we put many, many things underneath and then it's like is this... Like i question myself.

00:23:26: Are we talking about Love which has a feeling that you feel at some point?

00:23:31: or love?

00:23:32: It just if you did that, means love.

00:23:37: There's so many ways of defining the thing and I think personally i would rather put like... Love with some kind of feeling?

00:23:48: Some kind of emotion that goes through myself And then I think that the sacrifice- Of course I did a lot sacrifices to practice circles into become a Circles artist But it was not coming out of this feeling that I call love.

00:24:07: It's just like really wanting to do something and going until the end, And then you get entangled with many other things which i find very problematic as well Like ambition and feeling legitimate having a place in the market Which also means having a Place In The World.

00:24:31: But I would readily put that with love myself, but... ...I really see this sacrifice.

00:24:40: And then hearing Gaia was like oh yes of course!

00:24:43: Because there is- I cannot say it comes from there because i don't have enough historical knowledge to talk about it.. ..but there's a huge mix in the Catholic culture and between sacrifice & Love because this is really part of that faith and also how things should be.

00:25:07: And it's so interesting to see, like... Also now?

00:25:09: Because I grew up in Brazil which was a very Catholic country and Christian country but i didn't grow up under those religions.

00:25:19: So I think its different.

00:25:21: Of course I know it cause it's a western country But It's different!

00:25:26: And I know how in Italy This is so present.

00:25:30: And then it's like, oh yeah.

00:25:31: We cannot say he comes from there but definitely has some influences.

00:25:37: I would say

00:25:39: Yeah!

00:25:40: There are so many things to distangle.

00:25:42: just because when you were talking now Because i grew up in a home without any religion Like we didn't practice...there was no clothes Nothing.

00:25:53: But my mom is really ambitious for her work.

00:25:57: So the link between work and love was from the beginning always there.

00:26:02: Because she is a doctor, really out of passion in her life like it took so many space into our lives because we also had room for practice at home!

00:26:16: It's very close.

00:26:18: you have your workplace somewhere else.

00:26:22: She answered calls on her free time patience and stuff.

00:26:27: so yeah for me it's not so linked to religion but too work.

00:26:32: Yeah I think of course there are also other forces that we can speak about, It was a lot about class, for example.

00:26:46: About this need of entering a field that is not accessible to the working-class because in culture I see a lot of edictism and it's not so obvious...I mean i'm not saying you can't get in but.. ..I really felt that thing!

00:27:00: And so these ideas of sacrificing were like okay I just have to do that otherwise there's no other way than going into them.

00:27:12: There are a lot of things and also maybe some personal factors I don't know like In security, being socialized as woman is never enough to enter things.

00:27:26: And so this idea that you have to sacrifice To do it.

00:27:32: But yeah Like in my experience i think sometimes I confused sacrifice with commitment.

00:27:44: You can't be committed to something, also Beluxin about love speaks a lot of commitment.

00:27:50: but commitment is not sacrifice it's very different.

00:27:54: and i came to discover that a bit late in life better later than never.

00:28:01: yeah for me really came into my mind like...I was wondering oh!

00:28:06: For me if feels there is difference between curiosity and interest, love and passion.

00:28:13: I can be very curious interested in a topic not being passionate about it or loving it... And i have this distinguish- like..I distinguish myself but sometimes there is this mixture.

00:28:26: now Like right now im studying something and Im very very interested in it!

00:28:31: I find that very cool and very curious.

00:28:34: But I will never say I am passionate I don't know, it just doesn't match for me those two things.

00:28:43: And i find that interesting how sometimes and for some people... ...I don't why we put them together right?

00:28:52: Why do you think

00:28:54: so?

00:28:54: Gaia!

00:28:55: You already mentioned Bell Hooks and I also thought of her where Amanda was speaking before because this main thing about love as a verb and not as the subject or not as a noun.

00:29:11: How would you say could be like, Love is a practice?

00:29:20: Or like a verb that's more healthy in circus?

00:29:24: Very difficult question!

00:29:29: What I think of love... is that it's a practice and as the practice we can train.

00:29:38: As the circus teaches, I mean... We can train in a Circus Discipline or we could train ourselves in relationships And yeah..and i do believe this isn't concept but its like.

00:29:52: It's a Practice and as a Practice we can Yeah!

00:29:57: Decide also and set maybe some conditions where to improve our capability of loving and also in the circus field.

00:30:12: I find it interesting as a question, because like this starting point is already quite fixed right?

00:30:21: As if there was an unhealthy love for circles Like that's where it starts from.

00:30:26: And i found it interesting cause'i don't take it for granted.

00:30:29: I think the question is, if at some point it's not... It's unhealthy.

00:30:37: Is it coming from the circus practice?

00:30:39: Is this coming form your idea of love?

00:30:42: Like there are two different things that like in a match could become unhealthy.

00:30:47: but yeah i think there're so many questions to be asked when we get an unhealthy part because i think its also this no?

00:30:55: Like agreeing that something unhealthy is something that we want change.

00:31:01: This was already like a grand taking for granted something that it's a little bit more unclear.

00:31:07: But I think right now here, like between the three of us we could say okay this is where... It's common ground somehow to talk about.

00:31:15: if he becomes unhealthy then you should change things that are unhealthy and um And then its like.

00:31:25: ok The question Love to Circus Is my relationship with love?

00:31:31: Like, how I look at love and how i consider it.

00:31:34: that is unhealthy And its more like a bigger question in my life That touches many things.

00:31:39: Is this just the practice of circus?

00:31:41: Because It's super coded From a western point of view from a colonizing point Of view.

00:31:48: Is This because of that?

00:31:50: Is it also teaching me The Love IS THIS?

00:31:55: Then everything becomes unhealthy.

00:31:58: There are so many things to be... to be like that, and... But I think-I don't know.

00:32:07: I thought about something but maybe it's a little bit funny because i'm not super sure if I believe in it or just came into my mind That I really think for love to become more healthy has been known monogamous And then For circus it could also be the same, right?

00:32:30: Because we become like when... At least for me.

00:32:32: When I was in circus school and there was this such a big pressure that Circus becomes the center of your life And is like hey maybe not Like.

00:32:43: Maybe This Is Where The Problem Lies You Know.

00:32:46: Maybe With A Thing If We Get More I Don't know non-monogamous anti-colonial perspective to it, then we can think how not create a center and then create margins.

00:32:58: How to be like non monogamos in understanding that have multiple love or open love where sometimes you loved the thing but some times were more interested something else And maybe will create healthier ways of dealing with it.

00:33:17: I'm not sure about what i'm saying just came to my mind right now.

00:33:22: Yeah, two things yeah and of course how you started the question?

00:33:27: And also recognize that when I wrote the article in My Roommate read through it How this is... ...how big my perception on the connection between love and circus Is because for me I still remember my first time on stage and how much effect it has had on me, the body.

00:33:55: And for me i think its really a feeling of love because this gave more space and freedom was another experience like being in school For example, it was really a different space.

00:34:11: But also when I wrote the article my roommate was like ha!

00:34:15: I know so many people they just work has nothing to do with love.

00:34:19: and of course It's yeah, it's a really framed question already which has Yeah point-of-view.

00:34:29: And then what you said in the end?

00:34:31: I find it really interesting because What I heard is also that what Gaia was saying before, our idea of love.

00:34:42: That you are just monogamous to one thing or... You belong and have a link with each other.

00:34:54: And there's the German word Besitzanspruch but i don't know how translate it!

00:35:02: If we get more rid Also that the circus don't own my body, for example or The Circus Practice and it's- That I reinvent a circus practice which gives me more freedom also For the rest of my life not just for the circus practice But also for me.

00:35:19: A big question at the moment is how can?

00:35:22: The circus practice support My rest...the rest Of my Life?

00:35:28: Not they are the way around.

00:35:30: Yeah Yeah, it works.

00:35:32: Um yeah totally I think...I really feel that like how and i think you could go much beyond circles of course but staying in the circus part?

00:35:44: I really think this question is very good You know Like How our practicing Circus support The rest Of Our Beans In Our Daily Lives And Everything Not Just That We Forget Everything Else To be able to do Circus.

00:36:01: very interesting way to look at it and I really connect that with monogamy.

00:36:07: Well, i have not a lot of things to add to what Amanda said...I really like the point!

00:36:14: And yeah..i think in a way goes back to what i said at the beginning about the romantic love.

00:36:20: this idea of like unicity on one hand but also the idea of unquestionability.

00:36:30: romantic love is something that, it's there and you can't question or like a space where for example I mean... You can't.

00:36:40: And this also what i think about of Circus in general.

00:36:44: but my experience this year There was these thing which tried to change the bit.

00:36:50: Love is in contrast with critical thinking.

00:36:53: Or if we speak about something or if we discuss the myths of Circus, of Unicity for example... We don't love enough.

00:37:07: So I just resonated with what Amanda said about non-monogamous thing and myth of monogamy that is hidden behind romantic love.

00:37:23: It's made me suffer a lot in these years And I think

00:37:29: it's just as a play, right?

00:37:31: Like if you think about all the toxic behaviors we know very kind of... Very well Nowadays between like a couple heterosexual monogamous blah-blah-blAH and You put it to the relationship with circles.

00:37:47: It could also be funny too.

00:37:48: see yeah i'm not sure is accurate but Yeah there are many things now the feeling of betraying, or if you're doing something else.

00:37:58: If we are not training that like...if for now putting your energy there and taking a rest in some space for yourself take care of your body because it's needed but then somehow not honoring the practice You aren't there!

00:38:12: And all these things can come to our minds.

00:38:16: It is so interesting how easily built up parallel with this monogamous couple thing and it's

00:38:25: better.

00:38:25: It

00:38:26: is more a funny thing to do rather than like, big one but I would say its kind of fun exercise imagine?

00:38:32: But if we stay with the exercises what could be... Do you have practice which maybe developed in relationship or transferred into your relationship to circus?

00:38:47: That´s good question!

00:38:53: Really, you phrased it very well before of this how death thing that is very... That gives a lot importance to in your life.

00:39:01: There could be relationship with someone but there can also be just relationships with circles like its' very important and you decide that the whole life goes into that.

00:39:09: How that supports your whole life?

00:39:11: And not keep up your attention on energy.

00:39:14: I think these are really good things for looking at and trying to navigate them.

00:39:25: And then, yeah I think all the... It's very personal because i cannot say that everyone goes through this thing in the same way but this exercise of putting yourself like- I don't know how to say it.

00:39:44: Hold on give me a second to think.

00:39:47: Yeah making sure you are aligned with what things your doing.

00:39:52: Somehow an align could can mean many things now, but it's like I'm doing it because they really Because there is light.

00:39:59: It's important for me to do this and not because The external thing that the relationship is telling that this isn't important thing today.

00:40:06: And then of course There is a dialogue That is necessary cuz he's not like it's not either.

00:40:11: yeah i think This um That there is a dialog cause its not also just like.

00:40:17: im not trying too Trying to defend the idea that we should be selfish for ourselves and just think about what?

00:40:23: We want in what we do because I mean, I don't think also there works with Circles which is something they need discipline and practice like if you only follow how your feeling And what did he then probably never train enough or like to meet the expectations To call.

00:40:40: What are the circles?

00:40:41: and And I think it's the same in a couple, right?

00:40:45: Like you can not only do just what you want and then you don't care about What is like doing for the relationship before the other.

00:40:52: Then of course there Is a lot of like dialogue and things.

00:40:54: so There is no recipe around that i would say.

00:40:58: but there is this thing About understanding how.

00:41:02: The first information You need to deal with is whether YOU want Right!

00:41:07: Like...and THEN you start With THAT AND THEN YOU ENTER THE DIALOGUE following the rules of how we should be.

00:41:15: And I think this is something that...I do a lot in my relationships, not only love and sexual relationships but it totally resonates with what i have on work which doesn't mean I want that thing and my dialogue, it's great.

00:41:43: And we get to this incredible point is not true at all because there are so many things where... Dialogue isn't possible especially with capitalism.

00:41:53: Like..I cannot dialogue with capitalism saying hey!

00:41:57: I would like to not play too much of the game.

00:41:59: what do you think?

00:42:00: There is no one to dialogue with.

00:42:02: So then of course i'm doing things i don´t wanna But yeah That comes into mind.

00:42:12: Yeah, I would also like rebounce on that.

00:42:15: I really think this kind of honesty with yourself as the first step.

00:42:22: to love others is super important because in my experience so far both in love relationship but also work-relationship The less my point was clear for myself responsibility I gave to others or like the more power i give to others and so also now at this point of my career, it's very important for me to feel this sense of alignment with where I am.

00:43:02: The picture on what I would like to be is not clear, but What i don't want to be anymore or Like what?

00:43:08: Don't want To do If that point Is clear and if i can recognize That too myself.

00:43:14: I think it's also easier for others to Like to stay in relationship with me And Also build Deeper relationships and more honest relationships, but this has to go a lot with where you are in this at these point And I also agree.

00:43:31: It's not about being selfish.

00:43:33: I'm very relational person But it was so to be Like good in relationship?

00:43:38: I think You should be very honest with yourself which were you are end of song and with others and say what you can do that you can't.

00:43:48: Yeah

00:43:49: And I do have one like thing that, but i think it's very broad.

00:43:52: It doesn't only stay in the love circles and things.

00:43:55: But...I'm someone who is often questioning Like The thing?

00:44:03: I don't know.

00:44:03: Okay!

00:44:03: I'll try to phrase this again because I really don't like saying ''i am'' That kind of thing.

00:44:09: Often I question a lot The frames they are given To me.

00:44:20: Something that the anti-colonialism movement taught me a lot is to not associate love and good intentions with then, good things.

00:44:31: Because there's this big part of understanding colonialism... That colonialism was also an act for many, especially the missionaries.

00:44:43: For many people they came really like with huge love thinking about doing good thing And it's not like showing them that they were doing bad things.

00:44:52: I think, like... They really came from the source of love is just understanding that Love doesn't protect anything.

00:44:58: Love doesnt' protect against violence oppression domination exploitation and this a huge thing to learn because for me in the western narratives It also taking the ground off if you say so Hey, love cannot be the only thing you rely on because we do believe in Western that wish We are doing everything in the name of Love and then we go growing towards that which is like very Slippery as a place to walk on.

00:45:33: or what say?

00:45:34: And Yeah, I think for Everything would you know.

00:45:40: Like understanding III think II think a lot about it.

00:45:45: a relationship that is around love, intimacy and sex.

00:45:56: This kind of relationships in my life but also with like friends no friendship And sometimes even if the person thinks they are doing it because he really loves you good, like this is just perpetrating oppression violence and blah blah blah.

00:46:14: And how do we recognize it?

00:46:16: How do we try to do something

00:46:18: else?".

00:46:19: I think that also resonates with me... ...with Paul B Preciado who talks a lot about it About what should be questioning or doubting our own wishes Like the thing of our own taste for things.

00:46:35: If you liked anything You have to question yourself why.

00:46:39: Why do you like it?

00:46:41: Where this wish and will is coming from, because it's also deconstructing the idea that if something comes from what we want then it should be safe.

00:46:54: Somehow things are okay as they fall in your passion, love or wishes... And of course we all know its not because we're socially built things!

00:47:07: We just perpetrated a lot.

00:47:08: so I think There's a big question for me that really resonates between work practices and relational practice.

00:47:16: That is like, okay it's not because we are doing it out of good intention... ...that I don't need to question!

00:47:25: i will still question what is creating?

00:47:28: What is the frame?

00:47:30: Like..what actually creating our lives in especially which history this is participating on?

00:47:38: Because everything we're doing like of course is just small lives, right?

00:47:41: Like it's micro history.

00:47:43: But put together We are participating in some bigger history and what actually those things are participating on.

00:47:51: And am I happy or comfortable?

00:47:55: Is this what i want?

00:47:57: and stuff like that very often...I don't have the question..is This What I Want?

00:48:00: because It's Very Difficult to understand what do you want

00:48:04: but its

00:48:05: much easier To Understand The Things You Don't Want.

00:48:09: I don't have the alternative, like ready-made to...I want that.

00:48:14: But at least this one!

00:48:16: So let's try not do these and things like that.

00:48:20: for me it really mirrored in a situation i often have in circus surroundings what you said with good intentions because forty years in the circus scene.

00:48:40: For example, they found it at a circus where I wasn't as a child and stuff like that.

00:48:47: And then when i started criticizing something They always say yeah but had good intention and built some things so great.

00:48:55: Without them we wouldn´t have this or that and blah blah blah.

00:49:00: It makes no sense.

00:49:04: Of course, it's nice that they had the energy mostly.

00:49:07: It was old white man.

00:49:09: They have time to find a new circus And its'nice because we've got it But there is not reason I can't criticize now.

00:49:19: Also just one thing but this happens To me as an Italian person with the myth of beauty.

00:49:29: A lot people say come on!

00:49:31: This is beautiful But like also, a lot of what we consider beauty or classical beauty is very situated perspective.

00:49:42: Of beauty and lots of classical beauties built on oppression.

00:49:46: And so how do... What do you with that?

00:49:50: For me it resonates alot about these concepts.

00:49:53: I don't remember exactly the name So maybe i can check after.

00:49:56: but there's one concept in all this social sciences that studies oppression and domination.

00:50:05: There is something around, because I know it in French but there's something like the pattern of susceptibility or something which means we recognize all kinds of domination and oppression as a dominant group.

00:50:25: for whatever kind of domination.

00:50:28: they will very often use this pattern of susceptibility, which means that they will always take the things personally and try to say like oh but this was out-of-good intention you don't understand.

00:50:44: Like I didn't mean it... And stuff like that?

00:50:46: It's only touching their fragility as dominant groups!

00:50:52: And is so interesting too see when we... Because sometimes it can happen to ourselves, right?

00:50:59: Like that someone says something to you and you're like oh but I did it out of good intention.

00:51:03: And then he comes to you kind of justifying yourself like that...and i find this very interesting exercise.

00:51:08: so say if that comes in my mind try to understand how your in a dominant position regards the person because if its coming into me probably is what's happening..I'm not being able a group that I'm dominating.

00:51:29: And this is one of the most difficult things for me, like what i am right now in my work to deal with.

00:51:39: when I talk about many oppressions and dominations it's the most hard thing because of course I want to acknowledge to build structures and stuff, but it's like okay.

00:51:56: But how we don't then take that in a way to cover the things I'm important to be dealt with?

00:52:06: And there is something...I feel just not talking at the same level because if you are talking about this structure And then the person takes it to like, very personal.

00:52:19: It's like hey but he didn't build anything alone.

00:52:22: so its not about you and your own personal intentions is also difficult because that person really needs to be recognized in their effort as a subject right?

00:52:35: They need too!

00:52:37: Because even though we are talking with someone they might represent a structure Its still a subject.

00:52:45: So like how do you end up navigating those?

00:52:48: Like the switch is not very easy, but it's something I'm really trying to learn as well because i think

00:52:55: It's

00:52:56: so important as well to recognize.

00:52:58: The subject yeah Yeah You did put a lot of effort.

00:53:01: No, like if I don't know he's just so complicated

00:53:05: Yeah, it does and totally resonate with me because often in discussion With them like there was this type of women I'm in her forties or fifties and the person put like a

00:53:21: huge

00:53:22: amount of energy In there, in a theater on a circus.

00:53:26: And because also this woman sacrificed herself A lot and didn't really get paid for it Or recognized for it as well Because of the system.

00:53:38: It's really hard for me Aswell in these conversations too Of course be thankful, but at the same time she supports a system which works just because she puts so much not paid effort in it.

00:53:57: Then I got angry and then its hard to navigate around these

00:54:03: feelings.".

00:54:11: We tend to think that there will be some coherence in what we do.

00:54:16: And I really think, though... ...we should never forget about the randomness of things like physics.

00:54:22: is that too?

00:54:23: There's a huge component of randomness.

00:54:27: so this is it!

00:54:29: You put out lot effort.

00:54:31: It was not good but you are not able to hear and understand it.

00:54:39: be compassionate about where you are right now.

00:54:41: There's a huge thing of like, yeah that's it!

00:54:43: Like there is no much more to look for coherence and try make things fit And the puzzle is perfect.

00:54:50: This also has very western way of looking at things like forgetting Matter in life is very random.

00:54:59: So sometimes let it be random.

00:55:02: Let see what happens because its so much more complex than while we are being able to see, like maybe... We might be talking here and it's coherent because we're trying to narrow down our own perspectives into a very single point.

00:55:17: But actually at the same time I'm going through something in my life that you don't know but is so random!

00:55:27: Like what is happening?

00:55:28: That there also some let go of.

00:55:31: yeah Let's see what randomness will do with all of this

00:55:35: right?!

00:55:36: Before we coming to the last questions, I came up with one new one.

00:55:44: Because...I would like you ask what do you wish to see more in the circus field?

00:55:53: Could be on stage or could be in conversations and a structure.

00:56:00: What is something that you are longing for seeing more of?

00:56:05: I really don't know what to answer for this question, maybe because i have so many things and maybe im a bit monotonous on the theme right now but...i would see more paid work.

00:56:18: I would love to see more resistance in the field.

00:56:39: Because, especially right now because we're going through this huge moment of economic crises kind off into cultural fields everywhere and budget cuts like that.

00:56:53: Of course you can see a huge turn towards safer aesthetics And for me it looks a very specific kind of art.

00:57:09: The one that could survive in case we go to the political direction.

00:57:13: it looks like, where are you going?

00:57:16: And I think i would be happy to see more resistance... Of course!

00:57:19: I've seen a lot people but I say because they want me there and not because they're seeing what's happening in big places.

00:57:28: so yeah.. I'd love to see some radical resistance.

00:57:35: Nice, yeah.

00:57:37: Me too!

00:57:39: And also,

00:57:40: I just

00:57:41: re-bounce on that... I would really love to see more like social knowledge in the circus with whatever social knowledge means but as something that nurtures the practices and build some grounds for resistance.

00:58:06: How do we do that without knowing how the world goes?

00:58:10: Without reading philosophy, sociology, physics or whatever?

00:58:16: so this is a real wish I have also like with artist talks and critical thinking as researcher trying to develop it.

00:58:30: yeah i would say

00:58:31: thank you.

00:58:34: What was a big learning or like an aha moment in this whole topic we talked about?

00:58:44: Right now, the conversation you mean.

00:58:45: Like In The Past Hour

00:58:47: No it could also be last year and your whole life.

00:58:51: but sometimes We have these moments where I think Ah!

00:58:55: Now i got it.

00:58:56: So then we lose again.

00:58:58: But we had that moment when we thought like now we got it.

00:59:02: Yeah, I mean it's a thing.

00:59:05: Like for me and i'm very grateful that i am here saying with Amanda was part of the work we've been doing together in past year And It is The things We spoke about before About sacrifice & self-love.

00:59:25: I have few like aha moments In that one was in Napoli With Amanda.

00:59:33: But yeah, this idea that loving yourself doesn't mean to be selfish but it's really the first step of being able love someone else or something.

00:59:51: I don't know...but i'll try something!

01:00:06: that at the end of the day, all the effort we make is to be able to like super happy and And not forget that.

01:00:15: Like when we are dealing with things very heavy and very difficult in social fights and inequalities and stuff like That it's like at the End Of The Day It Is Supposed To Make Our Life Better!

01:00:28: Is It Doing?

01:00:31: I think for me this is a huge thing.

01:00:32: Never Forget It.

01:00:35: Thank you, that's a huge one for the end.

01:00:39: Last question!

01:00:41: We talked about the fairy tale from The Little Mermaid in the pre-talk.

01:00:45: so what would you recommend The Little mermaid to do with her decision?

01:00:50: I'd say that this sea is full of beautiful mermaids.

01:00:57: Of course Staying at your sea and don't give away part yourself to a white cis male man on land.

01:01:10: Yeah, I think it's just so funny because the whole tale is very weird.

01:01:21: So...I think for me would tell her something like around Are you going be happy at the end?

01:01:36: Which is something that's very difficult, because of course I would like to say hey stay in the sea.

01:01:42: Don't lose your voice No give up.

01:01:44: but it also why i try To make this exercise off?

01:01:47: I don't know how people want to live their lives But It's important that at the end its... Its good for you You're not doing it For someone else In a way Of believing That making Someone else happy will Make you Happy which Is Not Like That the guarantee?

01:02:07: I don't know.

01:02:09: It's not that, hold on because it is about a happiness like this.

01:02:14: Not giving up your own happiness with the promise someone else will make you happy maybe something like that.

01:02:23: Thank You!

01:02:23: It was so nice to have this last question Because always when i prepare... I got this moment of Maybe its stupid to ask this questions in the end because they are so linked at start but then Every time there is like a little moment that this really patriarchal white fairy tale mirrors the also, again... The view we have to the world because of your responding.

01:02:54: There are so many nice mermaids in the sea.

01:02:58: It's a nice responding too Like yeah it's such a heterosexual.

01:03:03: Sorry.

01:03:04: and last time a last episode.

01:03:06: I talked to someone who is live Who's just disabled?

01:03:11: And then we talked about like it this idea of having legs instead of the fish still already already ablisted Idea off its.

01:03:20: yeah, man A human has two have two legs and that it's perfect you know Like what it was.

01:03:27: again really nice

01:03:28: mirror

01:03:30: To have at the end podcast a very concrete mirror like ah this is how we have...we see the view with so narrow eyes.

01:03:42: Like at a beschränkten, beschränkter Sicht!

01:03:47: Okay um This was

01:03:49: our

01:03:50: episode.

01:03:51: I think i hope you could follow.

01:03:52: Um Our thoughts.

01:03:55: We will link some of The books I think in their show notes.

01:04:00: Thank You So much here with me or there and here at the same time.

01:04:06: I'm looking forward to meet you again in some places.

01:04:09: we will see, if you have any last words otherwise say goodbye!

01:04:17: Thank you very much for having us.

01:04:19: it's so good

01:04:21: yeah thank you too super nice

01:04:24: okay.